edumacatedgood: well its basically that there is no free choice
edumacatedgood: its just an illusion
edumacatedgood: cuz if ur put in the exact same situation twice, i believe ud do the same thing
Lorddude01: wouldn't that be because your though processes would lead you to the same conclusiona and choice?
edumacatedgood: but see its just the output of ur thought process
edumacatedgood: think of it like
edumacatedgood: if u have a function
edumacatedgood: u have an input and an output
edumacatedgood: the same input always results in the same output
edumacatedgood: the function doesnt choose anythin
edumacatedgood: it just processes
Lorddude01: i see what you're saying
Lorddude01: well, wouldn't that only be true then if we all followed logic
edumacatedgood: to us some decisions seem illogical
edumacatedgood: but given the person's background
edumacatedgood: it is logical
edumacatedgood: it only seems like a free choice because so many choices and inputs are made
edumacatedgood: oh yea and i think that when u go down deep enough, everythin is binary
Lorddude01: i see, and so we're programmed as we grow up?
edumacatedgood: yea
Lorddude01: a lot by our parents who have already been programmed
edumacatedgood: well it doesnt matter taht they were already programmed
edumacatedgood: but ur just the product of ur environment and ur heredity
edumacatedgood: both of which r just inputs
Lorddude01: ok
Lorddude01: so then free will is just the name given to the fact that you're allowed to take in the inputs then give your output
edumacatedgood: yes
Lorddude01: this is true
Lorddude01: but we still like to have this free will as opposed to someone else making a decision and forcing it on us
edumacatedgood: how so
edumacatedgood: u have no control over what u do
Lorddude01: i guess you would say someone else making a decision that includes us would just be input for us
edumacatedgood: yea
edumacatedgood: if i kick u
edumacatedgood: its an input for u
Lorddude01: so would you say that no decision we make is random?
edumacatedgood: no decision
edumacatedgood: and just so u know
edumacatedgood: randomness would also constitute a lack of free choice
Lorddude01: i see
edumacatedgood: actually tahts kinda a paradox
edumacatedgood: free choice means its not predictable
edumacatedgood: which would imply randomness
edumacatedgood: but randomness implies a lack of control over the output
Lorddude01: but if it's just a function, then wouldn't the output be predictable from certain inputs?
edumacatedgood: if u know the function
edumacatedgood: the function is unknown
edumacatedgood: think of it this way
Lorddude01: no, i gotcha
edumacatedgood: ok
Lorddude01: because if we knew the functions, then we would know exactly what was going to happen and life would lose its novelty
edumacatedgood: well thats not the reason
edumacatedgood: the function is too complicated
edumacatedgood: i mean an nth degree polynomial requires n inputs and their results
Lorddude01: i see
edumacatedgood: and there r so many inputs
edumacatedgood: that theres no way to precit the function
Lorddude01: i do agree that we will provide a certain output for certain input in all cases w/the exact same input
Lorddude01: that makes me think of two levels to the self
edumacatedgood: how so
Lorddude01: the outer where we're allowed to process so we have that "free will", then the inner in which you said we're binary that's set
Lorddude01: but we don't have very much access to the inner
Lorddude01: but the inner does change over time
edumacatedgood: ur really set on this free choice
edumacatedgood: oh yea and theres also, if there is a god, there is no free will
Lorddude01: yeah, that's definitely there
Lorddude01: do you think that the function stays the same?
edumacatedgood: hmm
edumacatedgood: yea
Lorddude01: so if i make a decision, then see the results, then have to make a choice exactly like that one, the results i saw would be input
edumacatedgood: yes
edumacatedgood: of course if u do somethin twice what happened the first time affects ur choice the second time
Lorddude01: i just keep seeing the results as somehow becoming part of the function instead of just input
Lorddude01: so you're just saying the way things are processed, not the processes themselves remains the same
edumacatedgood: ok if u stick a fork in a wall socket
edumacatedgood: u get shocked
edumacatedgood: the next time u consider it
edumacatedgood: u have that knowledge from past experience
Lorddude01: ok, let
Lorddude01: let's get back to the big picture
Lorddude01: accepting that there is no free will because of what you explained, is there any way there could be free will among us?
edumacatedgood: what do u mean
Lorddude01: let's take away the function
Lorddude01: all i could see to take its place would be randomness
Lorddude01: could anything else take its place
edumacatedgood: hmm
edumacatedgood: sorry bout that i had to help my friend
edumacatedgood: well randomness in itself is a function
Lorddude01: yes, you do put something in and it'll give something out
edumacatedgood: u know i doubt the existence of free choice period
edumacatedgood: if it is predictable it is not free
edumacatedgood: and if it is random it is not free
edumacatedgood: true?
Lorddude01: in the sense that you're talking about yes
Lorddude01: go deeper into if it is predictable then it's not free
edumacatedgood: it goes along the same line as if there is a god there is no free choice
edumacatedgood: its the same argument
edumacatedgood: do u need that argument?
Lorddude01: go ahead and lay it out
edumacatedgood: ok if god exists
edumacatedgood: god is omnipotent and knows everythin
edumacatedgood: so he knows what u will do
edumacatedgood: if he knows what u will do
edumacatedgood: u can do nothing else
edumacatedgood: thus u only have one choice
edumacatedgood: which is not free choice
edumacatedgood: u want an analogy?
Lorddude01: naw, i'm good
edumacatedgood: so u agree with that?
Lorddude01: yes
edumacatedgood: and along the same line, u cant b predictable
Lorddude01: and so if the function has the same input, the same output will result and so it is predictable
edumacatedgood: yes, well not even considerin the function
edumacatedgood: just period u cant b predictable
edumacatedgood: now u cant b random because then theres no point in the freedom
edumacatedgood: correct?
Lorddude01: yes
edumacatedgood: so u have to b somewhere in between
edumacatedgood: right?
Lorddude01: yes
edumacatedgood: if ur somewhere specific in between, ur once again predictable
Lorddude01: i see
edumacatedgood: and to an extent ur also random
edumacatedgood: to me its like u cannot b neither random nor predictable
edumacatedgood: cuz if ur predictable
edumacatedgood: u have one course of action
edumacatedgood: if ur random u have many courses of action
edumacatedgood: and even if the random isnt a uniform distribution
edumacatedgood: it will b the sum of uniform distributions
Lorddude01: ok
Lorddude01: so then take these two perspectives
Lorddude01: i have no free will because of all this, then i look to others and i do not know how they work, their function, so to me they would be neither random nor predictable until i knew their function
Lorddude01: but assuming i know everyone, then there is no free will
edumacatedgood: no
edumacatedgood: there is the illusion of free will to u
edumacatedgood: can u make a decision that is not random or predictable in any way
Lorddude01: no, because i know how i work
edumacatedgood: what do u mean
Lorddude01: so if i decide on something it is predictable
Lorddude01: to me
edumacatedgood: no like as a function
Lorddude01: no, i can't
edumacatedgood: so then how do u have free choice
Lorddude01: yes i see
Lorddude01: i still cling on to a different label for free choice as being allowed to make the choice that is not actually free
Lorddude01: but i agree with what you have said
edumacatedgood: what do u mean not actually free
Lorddude01: not actually free because it's either predictable or random
edumacatedgood: but how is it free choice
edumacatedgood: what definition of free choice makes it possible
Lorddude01: oh, ok
Lorddude01: yes, then the label would be wrong
Lorddude01: so the value i have for it would be that i, myself, am providing the output
edumacatedgood: as is everythin in the world
edumacatedgood: so u and a piece of dirt r the same
edumacatedgood: see evolution says people like me should die
Lorddude01: you mean quicker than normal?
edumacatedgood: cuz people who believe what i believe dont have much to keep them goin
Lorddude01: yes
Lorddude01: but i don't think what you have said defeats life
edumacatedgood: of course not
edumacatedgood: but i mean thats y religion is so prominent
edumacatedgood: it makes people keep goin
Lorddude01: yes it does, it makes people feel pretty good about being alive
Lorddude01: in an easy way
edumacatedgood: yea
Lorddude01: but considering we have a limited time here, i wonder how much of it i should use trying to figure life out
edumacatedgood: haha true
edumacatedgood: id just live it
wow, it's been so long, well i'm supposed to be studying for a calculus midterm but i am a lazy, lazy man. Plus, I found this wonderful thingy on nick's site. the bastard. and by wonderful i mean mildly interesting. plus, i beat him. 13%, ha!
naw, i'm not mad, i just wanted to say that. anyway, my dad canceled the compuserve account so i can no longer use mrenchilada on aim. i am extremely sad. so from now on i'll be using Lorddude01. i wonder who still remembers the days of lorddude99. yeah. that used to be my name back in the day. so tell friends, neighbors, and parents. by the way send me an im saying you know my new name cuz i lost my buddylist and i need to get all your names back.
on a different note, big fire here. actually three big fires. san diego has been officially deemed a disaster area. how i wish i had bought a car cover when i had the chance. school closed monday and tuesday. ha, take that all you losers not going to school in san diego. if ucsd burns i really wonder how they'll take care of us students.
you know what, i feel left out. i tell you, i get on this internet so that people would notice me and what do i get? nothing. sure, everyone else gets these incredibly witty and brilliant attacks on their site, but when harold wants to be cool, he gets nothing. i mean what's even the point of writing on a blog if no one is going to slander your name. fucking clown shoes.
There's a feeling I get when I look to the west,
And my spirit is crying for leaving.
In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees,
And the voices of those who standing looking.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it really makes me wonder.
i'm driving back to the lb tomorrow late afternoon and staying til saturday. i truly have missed it. hopefully my return will end this downcast mood as well as this lenghty illness. i am dumb.
